Friends of Talk Rational!:
Nontheist Nexus |  Rants'n'Raves |  Secular Cafe |  Council of Ex-Muslims |  OUTcampaign.org |  Daily Wingnut | 
Talk Rational!  

FAQ Rules Staff List Calendar TR! Store RSS
Go Back   Talk Rational! > Discussion > Evolution and Origins

Evolution and Origins Evolution, Creation and other discussions about the origins of Life, the Universe and Everything.

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 02-05-2009, 11:10 AM   #374729  /  #1
SteveF
Pleistocene person
Mod: History, S&S, E&O
 
SteveF's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: London, UK.
Posts: 12,002
SteveF
Default Arsenic and the origin of life

Interesting speculation:

Quote:
Wolfe-Simon, F. et al. (2009) Did nature also choose arsenic? International Journal of Astrobiology, advance online

All known life requires phosphorus (P) in the form of inorganic phosphate (PO43− or Pi) and phosphate-containing organic molecules. Pi serves as the backbone of the nucleic acids that constitute genetic material and as the major repository of chemical energy for metabolism in polyphosphate bonds. Arsenic (As) lies directly below P on the periodic table and so the two elements share many chemical properties, although their chemistries are sufficiently dissimilar that As cannot directly replace P in modern biochemistry. Arsenic is toxic because As and P are similar enough that organisms attempt this substitution. We hypothesize that ancient biochemical systems, analogous to but distinct from those known today, could have utilized arsenate in the equivalent biological role as phosphate. Organisms utilizing such ‘weird life’ biochemical pathways may have supported a ‘shadow biosphere’ at the time of the origin and early evolution of life on Earth or on other planets. Such organisms may even persist on Earth today, undetected, in unusual niches.
you can read the paper here:

http://precedings.nature.com/documents/1482/version/1
__________________
I'd like to see some animal male/male penetration (dry humping doesn't count) - supersport

I'm not really seeing scientific evidence of penetration.- supersport
SteveF is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2009, 02:00 PM   #374893  /  #2
Monad
dis member
Mod: E&O
 
Monad's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Leeds, UK
Posts: 3,546
Monad
Default

Cool - that was one of the main points I was making re the possibility of more than one extant tree of life.
__________________
Obama delusions
Monad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2009, 07:04 PM   #375320  /  #3
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nevada
Posts: 853
llanitedave
Default

I would guess that a primary reason that phosphorus is successfully used in biology rather than arsenic is because of the relative abundance of the two. Whatever life could use, it will be more abundant if it uses the more abundant resource.
llanitedave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2009, 09:03 PM   #375614  /  #4
premjan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 4,225
premjan
Default

Nitrogen and phosphorus are both used. Sulphur is used, but Arsenic isn't. Probably Arsenic is heavier / less reactive than phosphorus and also not as chemically active as Sulphur. I'm surprised that Lithium, Beryllium and Boron aren't used but they are probably locked up in minerals.
premjan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2009, 10:34 PM   #375789  /  #5
Steviepinhead
Senior Member
 
Steviepinhead's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Seattle
Posts: 2,342
Steviepinhead
Default

Ah, interesting.

But I thought it was, hmm, abundantly clear that the whole thing was kicked off by the judicious application of a dollop of that rare substance, Creomoronium.
Steviepinhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-05-2009, 10:40 PM   #375796  /  #6
RAFH
Robot Architect From Hell
 
RAFH's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Orting, Washington
Posts: 5,851
RAFH
Default

I think the real reason phosphorous won out is because of the extreme rarity of Old Lace back then.
__________________
Invent the Future
RAFH is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 12:57 AM   #375990  /  #7
Jobar
Zen atheist
 
Jobar's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Woodbury GA
Posts: 3,108
Jobar
Default

A year or so ago there was a cover article in Scientific American concerning the possibility of various 'alien' lifeforms on Earth. Arsenical life was one of them (along with left-handed DNA, silicon life, and life using amino acids other than the 20 used by our sort.)

I think that llanitedave hits the nail on the head; if arsenic was more common on Earth than phosphorus, life would probably use it instead. (Then the play would be Phosphorus and Old Lace. )
Jobar is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-06-2009, 04:32 PM   #377027  /  #8
Calilasseia
On the move again ...
 
Calilasseia's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Near Liverpool, UK
Posts: 466
Calilasseia
Default

But haven't some organisms already co-opted some less abundant, and from the standpoint of organic chemistry, more exotic elements into their biochemistry?

Don't we humans have the facility to press Selenium into service via Selenocysteine?

I just did a brief cursory check, and it seems that this facility was an adjunct to the genetic code, because there doesn't exist a codon sequence directly coding for Selenocysteine. Apparently what happens (for those like me who are new to the mechanism) is that the UGA stop codon is pressed into service as a marker, which instead of causing translation to stop when a special mRNA structure called a SECIS element is present, causes the translation to continue, with a Selenocysteine being inserted into the amino acid chain. Exactly HOW this all works is something I'm going to have to spend long hours studying in order to understand it properly, but it would appear that Selenium (as bound in Selenocysteine) is sufficiently useful to a wide range of organisms that a special adjunct to the genetic code has arisen to facilitate its integration into our molecular biology.

Then, of course, there are all those porphyrins, that co-opt metal ions (Fe ions in the case of Haemoglobin, Cu ions in the case of Haemocyanin in crustaceans, Mg in the case of Chlorophyll), and those Zinc finger proteins, along with Cobalamin (vitamin B12), which contains a Cobalt atom.

Last edited by Calilasseia; 02-06-2009 at 04:34 PM. Reason: D'oh, it's vitamin B12, not vitamin K!
Calilasseia is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-07-2009, 04:43 PM   #378506  /  #9
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nevada
Posts: 853
llanitedave
Default

Exotic elements can be used, but it appears that wherever that's the case the use is specialized enough so that only the trace amounts are needed. It's the more common elements that will be primary structural components.
llanitedave is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2009, 03:20 PM   #379862  /  #10
premjan
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2008
Location: NJ
Posts: 4,225
premjan
Default

All starts with a basic chemical cycle of I guess, RNA replication.
premjan is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 02-08-2009, 06:25 PM   #380103  /  #11
llanitedave
Humble Megalomaniac
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: Nevada
Posts: 853
llanitedave
Default

Maybe. I'm putting bets out that when E.T. is actually discovered, whether bacterial or advanced, it will use something other than DNA for inheritance. And maybe something other than RNA as well.

I've got no data or theory to back it up, just a gut feeling, but there it is.
llanitedave is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

  Talk Rational! > Discussion > Evolution and Origins

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 05:20 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.0
Copyright ©2000 - 2010, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.